While I was at Tokyo Demo
Fest last month, I wrote that some words around demoparty in “Moleman 2” and
other articles were constantly coming back (not in Hungarian, though I can
probably imitate some words by now). And among others, Gargaj’s voice was quite
loud in my mind. So I’m really surprised when he actually dropped by at my blog
post and said “welcome (to the world of demoparty)”. ……I’m
not gonna let him go just by hearing ‘welcome’, am I?
So, ladies and gentlemen
and the undecided… here comes your demoscene idol, Gargaj from Conspiracy, Ümlaüt Design! ("Chaos Theory" is one of the
known works of Conspiracy. This got 4.5 minutes of very very dense visuals, yet
it's only 64KB...)
In this interview, Gargaj
explains how it was to create his first demo, some inside stories around
organizing demoparties, Conspiracy’s work process, where he gets inspiration
for his demo/music and what demoscene means to him (and more!). It’s long,
deep and very inspirational.
Welcome to the world of
Gargaj.
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Coder,
musician, party goer & organizer… You seem to do so many things in
demoscene! Could you please tell us who you are?
 |
Photo: gargaj.umlaut.hu
|
I'm just a tiny
sound-emissive code automaton from the brighter side of Eastern Europe who was
lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time around the right people
and thus had amazing opportunities to witness incredible things in the history
of underground computer art.
So the
computers have been always in your life? How did you find demoscene?
I was born around the same
time the first home computers were so I think a lot of our process of growing
up was similar, initially not having a particular idea of what we are and where
do we go, and then it slowly started crystallizing over time. I think it's that
childlike naivety of the toddler encountering the naivety of the initial
computer art is what first resonated with me when I first encountered anything
on a computer, so it was easy to be naturally curious about what makes things
move on the screen.
Then as it progressed I
kept running into demos continuously through the DOS era, and luckily the key
people of the scene here in Hungary were adamant in doing outreach, so it was
easy to learn about what the connection between the demos and scene is by late
night radio or magazine articles, and "joining" the scene was of
course left up to the individual's willpower, which I slowly built up over time.
When was the first time you saw demo? Did you join demoparty soon
after?
I saw my first cracktros
in the mid-80s, then saw my first real PC demo in the early 90s, then found out
that there's a scene late 90s and my first party was in 2000.
And then
you started to create your own demo? What was it like to create your first demo?
My first real demo was
relatively late compared to my first party (two years after the first party),
but I was determined to live up to whatever the standard was at the time, so we
spent about a year building the engine for it. I wagered that since we're not
going to be as artistically proficient as the other groups' productions, so I
decided that we're gonna make the loudest most abrasive demo we can, which we
did.
Making it was an odd
experience because much of it I don't remember, I was in such a machine-like
state getting all the pieces to fit that the only moment that really stands out
as unusual or funny was when I locked Procyon in our room since he was late
with the texture mapper code and I wouldn't let him out until he fixed all the
bugs in it. Looking back, even then I didn't think of it in terms of
"easy" or "complicated"; a quote I recall from Azatoth /
Phenomena from the Enigma commentary on Mindcandy 2 was that "It wasn't
complicated [to code a certain effect], because it was fun." So I guess as
long as people hang the right carrot on the right stick in front of themselves,
they can easily outperform themselves.
Backfrom my very first demoparty (Tokyo Demo Fest) lately, I realized that your
comments about demoparty in Moleman 2 was so accurate; it IS difficult to explain why it’s great, isn’t it?
It took me several years
to realize what the actual flow of the scene was, that there were social
gatherings and it was a recurring periodic thing and that it was important;
around the age of 7-8 I was lucky enough to see several science / technology
trade shows at the local university, so I initially imagined demoparties like
that, with exhibitions - I never really thought you could have that large
amount of people and still feel like you have something in common; then around
the age of 15-16 I went to an RPG gathering which changed my mind about it, and
it started to make sense as I read more about it, and finally I had a pretty
good image about what I was expecting.
What was
the first demoparty you joined?
FLaG 2000.
And the
actual party was exactly how you imagined? Were you in shock or sort of thing
when you’re back from the party?
What of course diskmag
articles couldn't prepare me for was the atmosphere that emerges as the party
goes on and things get more and more exciting and the stakes get higher -
that's something noone can really explain (and I guess I failed at it too in
the film), because it's a personal interpretation to each and every attendee;
everyone experiences these moments differently, so it's hard to strip them down
into bylines or talking points. So in the end I guess sitting on the train on
the way home, it was less of a shock, and more of a process of trying to
understand what just happened during the weekend and where to continue, but
also perhaps for the first time in life, a feeling of really belonging
somewhere, the escapism breaking free.
And
you’ve been to many parties since then. Could you share the most memorable
thing which happened at demoparty?
I could easily spend a
book's worth of stories that I will never forget, ranging from awkward through
hilarious to epic and heartbreaking, and I'm pretty sure it's not going to end
any time soon as long as I'm able to visit more parties. I try to treat all the
events I go to as memorable as any other, because they're all special
occasions, and there's still always that moment of exponentially increasing
adrenaline rush when you're closing in to the party location that soon you're
gonna see all your friends again after all this time. Without citing random
examples (because these stories really are the best when told in person), most
of my favorite experiences are very passive, just watching people interact in
unexpected but amazing ways.
Not just
going to parties but now you’re also organizing demoparty such as “Function”
(Hungary). Why did you decide to host demoparty?
When I first decided to
join the scene, I told my friends who I dragged along for the ride that I can
do coding, music, graphics, whatever they wanted me to do, but I'll never ever
ever be a party-organizer, because I lack the obvious social and human relation
skills to manage other groups of people, be it other organizers, visitors,
sponsors, or anything.
Smash-cut to about 5
years later, where I make the feeble decision to take over Function organizing
from the people who didn't want to do it any longer and boom, I'm in the
situation I always wanted to avoid - so to answer the original question, it's
not because I wanted to but because I had to. I guess I felt an importance for
Function, and how it was growing every year, so I was worried there would be a
large vacuum left and the local scene would suffer from the loss. With the
party slowly growing year by year, I feel it was a good (if exhausting)
decision.
So,
thanks to current and past organizers, Function celebrated its 10th
anniversary. Through joining and hosting this party, do you see any difference
in Hungarian demoscene?
It's less Function alone
and more the contrast I see while organizing Function and helping out with the
Norwegian parties; the attitude differences are remarkable. Anywhere you go,
people try to arrive to a demoparty as early as they can, whereas here in
Hungary the visitor count is very low until Saturday afternoon where it
suddenly surges and the hall fills for the compos, and then almost immediately
empties out as well, which makes the judging of the party mood really
complicated.
Oh… ok,
then how about the changes in demoscene overall?
There have been a few
statements and statistics about how demos are made less nowadays or how the
focus is shifting between certain platforms, smarter people than me can
probably extrapolate some ideas from there.
What I do know is that
it's never been easier to get started in making a demo with all the
indie-developer-friendly educational material and demo code floating around,
and with the advent of budget travel, within continent almost any party is
easily reachable; and while the attendance of the parties continues to grow,
the demos don't seem to get more numerous, which perhaps is an indication of
the more consumption-based attitude of society nowadays, and I hope eventually
the scene starts correcting course and focusing more on the making than the watching.
You just
explained to me about special aspect of Hungarian demoparty. And addition to
Hungarian and Norwegian parties you are helping out, you and your friends had
organized demoparty for NVIDIA in US in 2008. Different country, different
party atomosphere? Or it has fairly universal mood or goals?
Last year at Function we
were a bit worried because a lot of the things about the party came together
fairly late, but I'll never forget the moment when we finally got the A/V setup
running, the screen was rotating the slides, the PA was playing one of the
Demovibes mixes, and we looked at each other and just said "Yup, the party
is on now." I think while the cultural diversity of the world obviously
takes certain traditions of the scene into certain unexpected directions,
there's a convergence toward a common methodology for demoparties that they all
aspire to reach; in other words I think the nature of the scene shapes the
initial idea of a party, and the local customs and traditions are what make it
interesting and memorable.
As far as NVScene /
NVISION goes, the tricky bit was that it was by and large a "sterile"
computer tradeshow, whereas we sceners are used to the grubbiness of sleeping
under the table and having drinks and yelling obnoxious things. Merging the two
paradigms took a considerable effort from the NVIDIA side of organizing, but I
couldn't be prouder of what they achieved as far as catering to a fairly fickle
audience as we sceners are, and the party went down as a demoparty really
should.
Ok,
let's go back to demo making subject. In Moleman 2, BoyC explained that you
guys formed Conspiracy to beat the Kings of 64K at that time. Will you explain
a little bit more how you formed Conspiracy?
Every time I think back
to how Conspiracy came to be, I can't help but think about how lucky I was at
the time to be around those amazing people who thought we could take what we do
to the next level. It really just happened as a decision out of thin air: one
day we decided that we're going to make a group to make something really
spectacular, and we didn't stop until we did. Looking back, yeah, it does smell
like your average underdog story, and I probably wouldn't believe if it
wouldn't have happened right in front of me.
Conspiracy’s debut work “Project Genesis” (2013)
How do
you work with other members? Do you get together to make demo? Do you create
music first? When do you decide the title?
Our method of working was
always fairly run-of-the-mill: we usually start with some sort of
single-sentence core idea ("techy 64k", "dark stuff", or
usually just "demo about planets"), and we flesh out some ideas that
give a general direction to the product, often with some concept art. Then we
go off and start working on the music, build/improve an engine, and then Zoom
dematerializes for a few weeks and comes back with the finished product.
We decide on the title
fairly early because as Zoom said before, a good title gives a very good
perspective or feel of the final thing. With Conspiracy we already have our
well-defined little areas that took shape over time, and while we allow each
other to suggest things that are not our responsibility, we usually keep to our
own little areas because that's the most effective way to deliver.
Regardless
of which group you’re work with, do you set your own rule or goal? Is there
anything you really care about when you make demo?
It depends on the
situation. If I'm working with someone who I feel has a very distinct and solid
idea of what they want to do then I try my best to work between the confines of
that idea and attempt to deliver something that I hope lives up to their
standards of production. Although I do like to throw curveballs at ideas and
take things into territories that weren't in the original concept, I usually
just adhere to whatever they expect from my work and whatever is in the
"briefing". Doing music, however, is often so early in the process
that sometimes I just take tracks I made for no other reason and circulate it
to people to see if they bite.
When I'm behind the
wheel, however, then I just really try to do what I feel like. This varies
wildly depending on the time of day and on what was for breakfast, which is why
I find it hard to find myself people to cooperate with, especially now that
I've taken a liking towards grand scale demos (which I think the scene
desperately needs more of). I don't really focus as such, but I would say that
if there's a part in a demo that I wanna get right, is the "essence"
of it, to make the audience feel like it was worth their time and don't make
them feel cheated. Everything else comes on demand: if the idea I have is
tech-heavy, I work on the tech, but otherwise I won't try to shoehorn effects
(in the traditional sense) in just to be able to say that I had effects in
there.
"in
the traditional sense", you mean like a early to mid 90s effects after
effect demo?
Yeah, in a sense, but
that's not entirely an unknown concept today either; you can still see
"coder"-demos nowadays.
How does
your workspace look like? Could we peek?
I don't think my
workspace is particularly exciting, it's a desk with a computer on it :)
...I was
just curious if you use one of those odd shaped keyboard :)
Nah, my keyboard is
entirely plain and very code-centric (it's really hard to find an English
keyboard layout here in Hungary), although lately I've been growing fond of the
play/pause/volume buttons on my keyboard at work. Generally I like the
"barebones" aesthetic in keyboards/mice, so I rarely spend a lot of
time picking them, I just take the cheapest one that fits the minimum criteria
I have, although I admit I tend to make the most of features when they have
them (like additional buttons), but at the same time it's never a
dealbreaker when they don't.
Do you
sometimes write code in a cafe or outside?
I fairly rarely make
music or code remotely because I don't really have high-end portable hardware
(I have a netbook for traveling, but that's it), although there was a time when
we'd come together often with others to make things. I'm not a big fan of
coding on laptops either way, because I really enjoy having a larger screen and
a larger keyboard, although again, if that's the only thing available, I try to
make the most of it.
Do you
listen to music while you're working? Or dead silence is required?
Music is fairly
ubiquitous in my work environment, I find it that I work better when I can
align my brain to the drive of the music itself, although I often prefer
instrumental because lyrics I find sometimes distracting. On occasion I do work
in silence, but it really depends on the moment itself.
(Unfortunately
I won’t be able to understand.. but here’s one for readers who makes demo…)
What program do you use to make demo? Do you create your own tool?
Again it depends on the
situation; over the years I pretty much learned what tools are best for what
purposes, but as a common thread I do like to do things with very little
turnaround time and I like to use existing software as much as I can, because I
think one can waste a lot of time reinventing the wheel and reproducing
boilerplate code instead of doing actual creative work that is specific to that
piece of art. For effects themselves, I often find myself going to prototyping
tools so I can throw an idea down into code as fast as I can, and then later
work it out in the engine itself when the principal effect itself is working.
I am a big fan of
creating demotools to ease the process, but it took me several tries over the
years to understand what I want from a tool and what I don't: I think a
demotool that provides content generation (unless it's for size-related
reasons) is an overkill because you can't outdo commercial tools in their own
field. Things like editing and compositing however are best done in a hands-on
WYSIWYG fashion; it reduces your turnaround time between trying something out
and seeing the end result, allows for a better range of finetuning.
I have great respect for
fans of "handcoding" who can just write code blindly and get
everything right on the first try, but I'm just not one of those people, and I
suspect a considerable portion of the scene aren't either.
How to make "Chaos Theory" bassline tutorial by
Gargaj
Where do
you get your inspiration for demo?
Initially I was obviously
influenced by other demos, but I've gradually acquired a taste for other fields
of computer art and modern filmmaking, so I try to incorporate a lot of the
thought processes I hear about into the work I do for a demo. I'm always
fascinated by film directors or cinematographers, or even VFX artists who can
provide detailed explanations on why they did certain things the way they ended
up doing, especially if they explain a particularly important or well-known
scene or shot for a film, because it allows me to reach a better understanding
on how to take thoughts and translate them into pictures.
Simply
out of curiosity, do you enjoy watching movie with Director's audio commentary?
Yes and no. Audio
commentary has the inherent and unfortunate problem of limiting the person
talking, because even though they would like to talk more about a certain
scene, it already went on and now there's something else to talk about; often
they just end up making witty remarks about a person's expression or something
like that.
I enjoy documentaries and
featurettes a lot more, when there are more key people involved, they have
their own pace of talking, and you can see additional footage of some of the
technical background of a stunt or some other setup.
Ok,
how about music? Where do you get your inspiration?
As far as music goes I'm
very much all over the spectrum, from psychedelic minimal ambient through
progressive metal to speedcore, and curiously I always seem to enjoy music
that's sort of "middle-ground" in multiple senses: I enjoy genres
that blend between other genres (like industrial metal or crossbreed hardcore),
and I usually end up listening to artists who are semi-popular and have a
reasonable fanbase but not popular enough to consider their popularity as a
factor in their creative process, so that their work remains motivated by
themselves only. The same goes for the aggression /melodicity
Do you
listen to demoscene music as well?
Controversially I don't
actually listen to a lot of demoscene music because I feel in a lot of cases
demoscene musicians don't listen to music outside their own scene so their
music sometimes feels somewhat inbred and outdated, or they only skim off the
top of what the current popular trend is and then somehow infuse that into what
they're making, but without understanding what made that trend popular or what
is substantial in it. I think especially as someone who makes music, my job is
to listen outside the scene and hear new things I can bring in, so most of my musical
focus remains outside the scene.
What do
you listen to these days?
I've been one of the
early adopters of djent; it's become a bit cookie-cutter nowadays, but a good
portion of the early material that came out is still quite amazing. I listen to
a good chunk of raw hardstyle and I'm really looking forward to hear where the
current crossbreed artists will bring the genre. Progressive breakbeat is
always going to be a favorite, and I've recently decided to go back to some
early hard rock as well.
Alright,
it's time for the classic question. your favorite demo, memorable demo, demo
that changed your life… anything… tell us one demo which is special to you?
It really depends on what
day it is, really; I have a bunch of demos that I really appreciate at any
time, but as the scene goes on I continue seeing things that inspire me, so my
list of favorites is continuously expanding. As far as memorable demos go, I've
been incredibly fortunate to witness many legendary demos play in compos, and
that's always a fantastic feeling, coming away from a party knowing that I've
seen history happen. I would really have a hard time picking one and just one
out because most of the demos I'd pick have an equally important one next to
them in my mind.
Why do you make demo? What demo/demoscene means to you?
That's a really massive
question and I'm not sure how to answer it without ending up in
cliche-territory.
For a certain part of the
population, creating things is their only way of dealing with whatever things
they encounter in life. I was fortunate enough to be born in a time where
technology provided us with almost infinite possibilities on doing that, so I think
part of my duty is to make the most of what I've got.
The demoscene is a
wonderfully challenging way of escapism for people who are sometimes "too
artsy to be nerdy, too nerdy to be artsy", and the scene has given me not
only knowledge and possibilities, but more than that, it gave me friends, so
like many others I feel indebted to it, which I think explains why sometimes we
get extremely vocal and defensive of it. It's our outer protective shell
towards reality.
Is there
any goal or dream that you want to achieve in demoscene? What do you expect the
future demoscene to be?
I still think I'm about
at most 50% of what I wanted to do or can do in the scene; I still wanna make
things with lasting appeal, things that are more than just random playlist
items. I want to make music, demos, etc. that mean something to people, and
that's the hardest possible task I think an artist can aspire to.
As far as the grand
picture goes, I really have no idea, but I don't really think ahead that far
anyway. I just focus on the next demo I make, the next party I go to, the next
music I write.
Finally,
your message for demosceners and demo fans out there please.
I know this sounds really
insipid, but the scene really is what people individually make of it, and they
themselves can be capable of changing things for the better if they want to do
it. And that's the big "if" the future of the scene is balanced on.
Thank
you Gargaj. Obviously I’m a big fan of your work.
Don't be a fan; become
someone who has fans ;)
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At first, I asked him if I can send *some* questions… but it turned out to be…
voilà. (And kindly Gargaj has answered all my questions.) Thank you very much
for this, Gargaj!
On Gargaj’s website, you
can check all of his works and track what party he attended. His “Retrospective on MAIN 09” can be read
on ZINE. (ZINE offers
fantastic articles written by sceners, in case you haven’t read it!)
Thanks for reading!
[Feb 14. 2014] Videos added.
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- Interview with Japanese demoscener q from nonoil/gorakubu is here.
- Interview with Szilárd Matusik, the director of "Moleman
2" is here. (You can see Gargaj and many other demosceners commenting in this documentary.)
- Notes about how I discovered demoscene is here.