The title of the demo comes in the very very last minute sometimes, just before
submitting to the demo party. All my demos are called "main.exe"
until renamed it otherwise at .zip packaging and uploading time. "Paradise"
and "Elevated" were exceptions though. "Paradise" got its
name months before it was complete, and "Elevated" was suggested by Mentor
a couple of weeks before the deadline.
64K demo “Paradise” by RGBA (2004)
Hmm, that’s interesting
to know.. You said “Elevated” was different or “exception”. Why? In what sense
it’s different from others?
“Elevated” was different in the sense that we planned the whole compo
domination. We decided to have great music, great cams, optimize the hell
out of the code, and do it with time in advance (2 months!) so we would
have time to polish. We didn't rush at all. I had broken up with
my girlfriend after 6 years together, so I was alone but more than
ready to invest time coding. I did the imagery and main coding in the
evenings and night, in a huge 40 square meter living room that I had that was
empty except for a couch and a projector. It was a private screening room!
The visuals were of course not storyboarded or anything, but still, we got
lots of time to polish and try different cameras and pick the best ones,
improve the music, etc. We finished the demo 3 days before the compo, with
something we knew it was going to win. Basically, we were satisfied with the
result. Which is so unusual!
It’s tough to believe that
you created it without any storyboard though! Then where do you get your
inspiration for the demo?
“Harry Potter”, “The Lord of the Rings”, “Pirates of the Caribbean”,” The
Hobbit”. I guess, matte painters and VFX studios. But it's very indirect.
They inspire me because I see their movies and (I feel) “I WANT TO DO
THAT!!!!!!!!!” But then I'm a lazy bastard and never download or buy their work
and study it. Instead I just watch the movie and set some sort of target
quality bar that I want to hit by some miraculous process. Which is stupid, I
should study those things more systematically. But I always end up doing random
exploration, and more often than not, failing.
I also get inspiration sometimes from some motion graphics or demoreels,
visual experiments and such. But much less, cause I find them more boring.
Are these your favorite
movies or just for inspiration?
They are not my "favourite". In fact, I
don't watch movies really. I don't have TV nor Netflix or streaming services. I
only watch movies if somebody I am with want to watch a movie. These HP, TLOTR
and Pirates are inspiration. I find their visuals pretty (and cheesy, but I
like cheesy).
Totally out of curiosity,
do you dream while you’re sleeping? Does your dream have colors?
I very, very rarely dream. Maybe once a month or less. People say that we
all dream but we don't remember. However I'm kind of pretty sure that I don't.
When I do, I don't dream in color or monochrome, nor do I in any particular
language. This is a common question - do you dream in Spanish, or Basque, or
English? And the truth is I don't dream in any language or color.
I don't "hear" or "see" my dream like a movie. Is that
how you guys experience them? I simply dream of the communication or the
situation or views, not the mechanics of the communication (language) or set
(colors). I think I experience dreams more in first person, rather than in
third person. Like in normal life, you simply "tell people things"
but don't worry nor even realize the grammar or language you use - you simply
tell them what you are interested in telling them. Same way, when I'm in a
store I am in the store, not in a world of colors or black and white. Dreams
are the same, they are not very different from reality. So, no particular palette
or language when I dream. Which is not often.
…I’m really tempted to
dig more about this topic, but maybe some other time :)
Could you show us where
your demo is born? Do you do anything particular while making demo… like
listening to music, drinking beer, coding in the darkness…?
I'm a total unrecoverable night person. If I wake up in the morning and it
happened to still be dark, I'd feel miserable.
I work at nights, when the city sleeps and there are no noises, when
people don't disturb me nor do I commit to do any other thing. I usually work
in the dark, although it's being 5 years now that I have the bedroom full of Christmas
lights 24h/365d. So darkness and Xmas lights. On the desk, a lamp to my left
which I switch on if I need to write something down or draw something. And the
computer to the right, all in a big (but cheap) Ikea table. It's being like
that (except for the Xmas lights) since I was 14. It's totally a habit thing
more than a convenience, I think.
 |
(Photo provided
by iq)
|
No drinking, no smoking. But yes condensed milk and yogurt with cereals.
Maybe some music, but very very rarely. I am very simple monotasking system. I
have been known for not believing/trusting people who code or read and listen
to music at the same time. Now I know they can, and that I cannot (unless I'm
doing something simple - but then what's the point of doing it). So usually, no
music.
Ha ha, It’s fun to
picture you coding in Xmas lights holding cereal bowls :) Okay, so... unfortunately
I won’t be able to understand… but here’s one for readers who makes demo… What
program do you use to make demo? Do you create your own tool?
Visual Studio. And now that I built Shadertoy with my colleague Pol
Jeremias, I use Shadertoy too. I don't know how to use Maya or Max or
Photoshop. I want to learn to use After Effects or something for making videos,
but I haven't invested the time yet :(
So Visual Studio, and a pen. No paper. I use all the fucking propaganda
letters and advertizing magazines I involuntarily get in my mailbox every day (America
is crazy, even if you tell them not to, you still get lots of stuff). So I use
the backsides or borders of these, otherwise useless paper to do annotations or
solve the little math thingies that I need to solve.
For production, no demo-tools either. I tried once to make one, and I
catastrophically failed. I am not a tool-maker. I get bored to death. I also
realized that I don't even "believe" in the concept of demo-tool
either, not as a medium term solution to demo making (maybe it's ok for one or
two productions). I know I'm wrong, yet, it still "feels" wrong to
me. It all depends of course who will make the demo in the end, an artist or a
coder.
You made some video
tutorials to show the process of translating mathematics into graphics. And as
you mentioned, you have built the community called “Shadertoy” where people can
share their code. And I wonder... you seem to have quite many hobbies to
express yourself, but why do you choose programming and mathematics?
Cause maths/coding are "easy".
What?
... Wait, I need to explain this. As a kid, at school I always enjoyed
maths because I found them intuitive and natural. I bet most of, if not all, coders
feel the same way. Maths class was always easier than language or history. So,
because it was "easier", and I am lazy, I spent more attention
to maths than any other subjects. And because of that, I got better, which made
them look even easier. It was a positive feedback loops. At some point however,
instead of being lazy and be happy about their ease, I became curious about
them. I started learning maths by my own. Later in time I naturally chose a
technical career at the university because it was just easier to me that way.
Video tutorials “formulanimations
tutorial :: the principles of painting with maths” by iq
Maths became an entertainment as soon as I mixed the computer in the
equation (pun). That was the time I started learning to program, and the whole
thing evolved into fractals, demoscene and mathematical paintings. All driven
by laziness. I am a natural procrastinator, and in fact I often get in serious
trouble because I delay things beyond all reason. And guess what I do when I procrastinate,
instead of those other important things that I should be doing? Very often it
is "math and images".
Oh wow… so math and
images are your hobby…
All is not maths and images though. Among the other things I do or have
done are skiing as number one (I was involved in competition for a few years,
and I still love/need the white free sliding), contemporary dance (have you
ever been on a stage? I have!), writing, learning new stuff, and I don't
know, so many things many of which cannot be said in public!
Ok, then I won’t ask you
further about your hobbies here… :) I’m personally not good at maths but I
often hear that there’s beauty in maths from people who are good at it. Will
you explain to me “the beauty of mathematics” in your own words?
I think there are many levels of beauty. I myself don't grasp the meaning
of that sentence at some of those levels, since I am not a mathemagician and I
don't understand all of the abstractions and constructions involved in high
level mathematics. Those levels that I don't reach must be like a philosophical
poetry of some sort I think. I am not there. To my limited understanding,
however, there's a lot of beauty in the mathematical concepts and ideas that I
manage to understand and build intuitions for. I remember building such
intuitions in the past and feeling tickles in my brain, such to speak, when
doing so.
However, I don't use the sentence "the beauty of mathematics" as
much as I use "mathematics can crate beauty". And what I am doing
there is a very practical and non-philosophical claim - that you can use maths
to paint images that are beautiful. That simple. And is not philosophy nor
needs further faith. It is one of the very basic principles of the demoscene or
CG movie making, which are phenomena that exist and are tangible. But of course
most people out there don't know that, and they don't know these demos or
movies are made with tons of mathematics. Hence my obsession of spreading that
message.
Right. I really didn’t know
that. And I still cannot believe that… Back to demo making
subject, regardless of what demo you’re making, do you set your own rule or
goal? Is there anything you care about when you make demo?
Absolutely. If I am not impressed with myself by what I just did in experiment/demo,
I don't release it. I have very, very high standards for myself (and also for
other demosceners). If I don't release something it's because I'm not happy
with what I have yet.
Now, the problem is that quality needs time. And I'm also aware of the
90%/10% law. However, my position is that not releasing is not a problem. The
world won't change if I don't release a demo, who cares. So I can wait until my
skill level and knowledge improve, until I'm become a better artist and coder.
I can just wait until reaching my expectations fast enough, no rush. Also, I am
not systematically trying to improve those skills or learning, I'm too lazy for
that (remember laziness is part of who I am).
Instead, I do other things and learn the things I need to learn just as a
background process, almost by osmosis, by being in supposed to or close enough
to the things that I think better than what I do (again, movies, work, etc).
Then, every now and then (every few years) I retry my experiments, and usually
fail again. Then continue with life and other stuff.
Your work is often packed
in very small size such as 4kb or 64kb. Does size matter? Why does it have to
be small?
Size certainly matters. You can compensate with quality, but if the proper
size, then the better!
Oh, are we talking
about…
And this applies for demos too. If you can do a beautiful demo, and it
happens to be small, then it's twice as magical. And size limitations also help
proving that "maths can create beauty", cause if it's small it has to
be mostly mathematical naturally.
Okay :) Then let me throw a
bit mean question. I don’t know anything about programming so this is just
guessing.. but to show that much graphics and music with just a few lines of
codes, you have to optimize and optimize to the point where you cannot make it
smaller than that. So in the end, each code must be very smart and will do many
things at once. But generally speaking (in general business world), isn’t this
unpractical? I mean, you may have to write up whole thing if there’s problem..
or not every programmers can handle such polished code… Can the beauty co-exist
with practicality in programming?
I don't know. I think there's in fact a middle point between crazy obfuscated over
size-optimized code, and regular so-called "well designed" code,
which often is over-engineered, excessively generic, too much documented, and
absurdly unusable. We all know this style of coding and the programmers behind
them of which there are many. Those are who know a lot about design patterns
but little about making proper programs. But they have been trained to do so,
so it's only partially their fault.
I think that somewhere in between academic programmers/trainer engineers,
and democoders, there's a sweet spot of elegant design-robust code that makes
use of both practical business-oriented programming and simple (meaning small)
code..
Very interesting. So
there are different “styles” of coding, not just programming languages…
Okay, then shall we move
on to this classic question? Your favorite demo, memorable demo, demo that
changed your life… anything. Tell us a demo which is special to you.
The encounter with
demoscene has changed you or your life in any way?
Certainly YES. I make demos for a living now. They are offline rendered
and do serve a story, but everything I do at work is democoding. And surely
enough I wouldn't be the same without my relationship with the demoscene! (note: Here's what he's doing at work)
Wow, so it was indeed divine announcement! :) Then what do you
expect the future demoscene to be?
Hopefully demos won't look like "demos" one day. It's an
outdated concept I think. Surprising people with impossible images made thru
mad skills and producing beauty with code, that’s what I hope it will survive. The demo in its
current format, I'd liked it died soon (like a caterpillar) for something
better to come (something more like a butterfly).
Beautiful imagery. And finally,
your message for demosceners and demo fans out there please.
Demosceners You rock!
Demo fans? Go make a demo? Or thanks for watching? I don't know ^__^
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you very much for
answering all the questions and photos, iq! It was, in so many ways, full of
surprising answers :)
On his website, you can
check his various works; demos, images, articles (including tutorials around
Elevated), and there’s not-so-techie blog too. (yay :D) On RGBA’s website, you
can check their demos and source code of their work.
And if you’re a person who
enjoys programming and such, be sure to check and join his co-founded “Shadertoy”
(you need a WebGL-enabled browser for this website). You can check more video tutorials
from here. For more about Shadertoy, he shares some stories in diskmag called Hugi.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
- In case you’re wondering what “demo” or “demoscene” is, better check out the well-made documentary called Moleman2. (and the director, M. Szilárd Matusik's interview can be read in here.)
#1: Interview with Demoscener: q from nonoil/gorakubu is here.
#2: Interview with Demoscener: Gargaj from Conspiracy, Ümlaüt Design is here.
#3: Interview with Demoscener: Preacher from Brainstorm, Traction is here.
#4: Interview with Demoscener: Zavie from Ctrl-Alt-Test is here.
#5: Interview with Demoscener: Smash from Fairlight is here.
#6: Interview with Demoscener: Gloom from Excess, Dead Roman is here.
#7: Interview with Demoscener: kioku from System K is here.
#8: Interview with Demoscener: kb from Farbrausch is here.
- For some of my posts related to “demo and “demoscene” culture is here.